Rights as an American Citizen
Black Cross wrote:
"And nobody has taken away any of your rights. Stop harping. "
Telling me to stop using my FIRST amendment right becuase I believe the FOURTH amendments is being violated is by far the height of comedic irony. I've got a better idea... stop listening. That is well within your rights.
If you continue to listen. Tell me if our mutual friend TunnelRat is being surveyed. He calls Germany regularly. Does he not have the right to speak to his family in privacy? How about his wife. With family in Puerto Rico, is she a target? Do they give up their rights because they have family overseas? I would hope not.
This weekend I'm going to call 3 numbers in Syria at random. Then follow it by 3 in Iraq. Will I then be a target? Do I NOT have a right to do this very asinine and stupid thing in private? Are my rights then being violated. If they aren't (even right now), prove it. Get a warrant. No one branch of government should have the right to spy on US citizens without oversight. That's what checks and balances are all about.
On Torture... How we treat prisoners has nothing to do with who THEY are, but rather who WE are. To lower ourselves because our enemy does is ridiculous. We were fighting Germans in WWII, and they slaughtered Jews. Should we have then slaughtered Germans? The answer is an unerringly NO. So the argument that we behave inhumanely becuase our enemy does make US our own enemy.
"And nobody has taken away any of your rights. Stop harping. "
Telling me to stop using my FIRST amendment right becuase I believe the FOURTH amendments is being violated is by far the height of comedic irony. I've got a better idea... stop listening. That is well within your rights.
If you continue to listen. Tell me if our mutual friend TunnelRat is being surveyed. He calls Germany regularly. Does he not have the right to speak to his family in privacy? How about his wife. With family in Puerto Rico, is she a target? Do they give up their rights because they have family overseas? I would hope not.
This weekend I'm going to call 3 numbers in Syria at random. Then follow it by 3 in Iraq. Will I then be a target? Do I NOT have a right to do this very asinine and stupid thing in private? Are my rights then being violated. If they aren't (even right now), prove it. Get a warrant. No one branch of government should have the right to spy on US citizens without oversight. That's what checks and balances are all about.
On Torture... How we treat prisoners has nothing to do with who THEY are, but rather who WE are. To lower ourselves because our enemy does is ridiculous. We were fighting Germans in WWII, and they slaughtered Jews. Should we have then slaughtered Germans? The answer is an unerringly NO. So the argument that we behave inhumanely becuase our enemy does make US our own enemy.
posted by Voodoo at 9:09 AM
2 Comments:
>> Telling me to stop using my FIRST amendment right becuase I believe the FOURTH amendments is being violated is by far the height of comedic irony. I've got a better idea... stop listening. That is well within your rights.
See how I have no power to "make you stop," and therefore, there is no possible way I could "take away your right?"
Remember, you invited this discussion.
>> If you continue to listen. Tell me if our mutual friend TunnelRat is being surveyed. He calls Germany regularly. Does he not have the right to speak to his family in privacy? How about his wife. With family in Puerto Rico, is she a target? Do they give up their rights because they have family overseas? I would hope not.
Hm. Knowing what I know of those two, I highly doubt that their families - or anyone else they would talk to in those countries - are on an NSA terrorist watch list. So I'd say they are not being listened to.
>> This weekend I'm going to call 3 numbers in Syria at random. Then follow it by 3 in Iraq. Will I then be a target? Do I NOT have a right to do this very asinine and stupid thing in private? Are my rights then being violated. If they aren't (even right now), prove it. Get a warrant. No one branch of government should have the right to spy on US citizens without oversight. That's what checks and balances are all about.
You have every right to do it. And nobody will stop you from doing it. However, if you call a number owned by a terrorist that the NSA knows about, understand that you may be listened in on, as the NSA is trying to prevent future terrorist attacks, and would be interested in knowing why you are talking to a terrorist.
Get this: they are not spying on YOU, they are spying on the TERRORIST. If YOU are the party at the other end of the phone, and incriminating evidence is heard, I have no doubt they will get a warrant, probably for your arrest.
Do something for me. Prove to me your rights have been violated. In fact, let me quote:
Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Key word, germaine to this discussion:
UNREASONABLE.
Is it unreasonable for the NSA, or any other government body, to eavesdrop on a conversation with a KNOWN TERRORIST?
I don't think so.
Another thing - you keep this canard up "without oversight." Guess what? The members of the Congressional Committee on Intelligence have been given briefings about this program since its inception, and until an ELECTION YEAR, they didn't have a problem with it.
On Torture:
Have you heard me say we should slaughter our prisoners? Have you heard me say that we need to cut arms and legs off? Stop drawing these overblown parallels.
The fact is that our prisoners are treated worlds ahead of what our enemies do. You said we should abide by the Geneva Conventions; I said we are, because the GC doesn't come into play with these people.
>> How we treat prisoners has nothing to do with who THEY are, but rather who WE are.
Yep. Which is why after our interrogations, these people should walk away with all body parts intact. Psychological scarring? Sure. But the enemy has declared against us, and excuse me if I don't care if they don't sleep quite as well for the rest of their lives because they were caught trying to kill Americans.
We're going to have to disagree on the point of wiretapping. It believe it is unreasonable to ask me as a citizen to trust that everyone on the "known terrorist" list is actually a terrorist. It's not exactly published and therefore I DO view it as unreasonable.
On Torture, I do not view it as overblown parallels. I do not draw distictions between mental and emotional scaring and physical scaring. Scars are Scars.
Also note that the people in Abu G. have never had a trial or any sort of evidence presented. Are they ALL guilty? In my opinion I'd hate to subject an innocent person to that sort of treatment. In my opinion that just may make a terrorist.
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